We are here to advocate the dream of a state where a citizen is recognized because of his/her existence as a human being rather than cast, creed, sect or religion.
Contributions, feedback and death threats are all welcome. Kindly use the following email address to contact:
pakistan.secular@gmail.com
Secular Pakistan 
Daud Ahmed
March 15, 2009
The dream lives on…
ALE-Xpressed
March 20, 2009
Do you welcome fatwas as well ?
I am too busy to kill “ghatya, napaak, paleed” ones like you. I’ll just issue a fatwa and jaan-nisaa-raan-e-deen will make do your pieces !
ConspiracyTehreek
March 13, 2010
Thats exactly why we need secularism. Thanks
Nadia
October 26, 2010
This the level of tolerance you have.
faisal
August 11, 2013
this is the purpose of this page to bring people like you to real world from the world of extremism. you are product manufactured by molvis not by your natural thinking so we cannot blame you for your comments.
knowledgetoday
March 24, 2009
I love your site. Keep it up !
Raza Rumi
April 5, 2009
Great work. Keep it up!!!
Also contribute to Pak Tea House..
RR
aZ
May 22, 2009
Hey,
Love your blog. Could you please gimme a reference to the quote of Jinnah you are using?
Thanks!
Awais
May 22, 2009
Its from his August 11 Speech.
http://www.pakistani.org/pakistan/legislation/constituent_address_11aug1947.html
beenasarwar
September 26, 2009
Great to come across this site and keep it up
1. Please do take a look at my article (which you are welcome to post or link):
‘Bring back Jagannath Azad’s Pakistan Anthem’
http://beenasarwar.wordpress.com/2009/09/19/bring-back-jagannath-azads-anthem/
2. I also encourage everyone to support this initiative by Ghulam Mustafa Lakho, Advocate, High Court of Sindh:
PLEASE SEND YOUR COMMENTS AND SAY NO TO THE STATE RELIGION OF PAKISTAN
– Support the Campaign for Amendment in Article 2 of the Constitution of Pakistan, 1973 (text below)
http://saynotothestatereligion.blogspot.com/
3. Please see http://drsarwar.wordpress.com – Dr M. Sarwar led Pakistan’s first and only nation-wide united student movement in the 1950s. We are trying to take forward his legacy of a struggle for democratic, secular politics and universal education and healthcare
There is also a Facebook group: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=167411502891&ref=mf
thanks
beena sarwar
Shahvaar Ali Khan
September 28, 2009
Awesome site!! Great initiative…
You guys might be intrigued to check out my track ‘NO SAAZISH, NO JANG’ also available on http://www.shahvaralikhan.com
The Song
In “No Saazish, No Jang” I have endeavored to develop a Peace Anthem with allusions to religious bigotry/extremism & terrorism, neo/western imperialism – impending problems that plague all South Asia – with ‘regionalism’ as a proposed solution to this turmoil. In the song, I have also appropriated and weaved words from speeches of various South Asian and global popular/democratic leaders like Gandhi Ji, Jinnah sb., Benazir Bhutto and Obama to drive home the point that ‘relatively speaking’ all have emphasized the need and hope for Peace. In other words, ‘People desire Peace’ (vis-à-vis the ‘establishment’ that have other ulterior motives). The idea of using these leaders as ‘spokespersons for Peace’ is to also ‘connect’ with the populace of India, Pakistan and NRIs/Ps – the South Asian Diaspora.
The South Asian Audience
Since its exclusive viral internet launch, ‘NSNJ’ has garnered a heartening response from a diverse audience – the website has had 5023 hits till the last hour. The song has also been especially well received by Pakistani, Indian, Bangladeshi and Nepali students from colleges like Harvard, Trinity, NYU and many other institutions abroad, in addition to assorted listeners here in Pakistan and India. It has also been declared the official Peace anthem of a youth organization called the India Pakistan Friendship Club (www.ipfc.info) based in Bangalore with members from both sides of the border, A.C.H.A (Association for Communal Harmony in Asia (http://indiapakistanpeace.org/) and was played all around last weekend of May at the All Pakistan Drama Festival in Ghulam Ishaq Khan Institute at Topi & at SWAT (Pakistanis For Peace) Fundraiser for IDPs held in Aspen Lounge, NYC on June 17th, 2009.
Existing Media Coverage
I am really humbled that the song has made some news in the THE TIMES OF INDIA http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-4772470,prtpage-1.cms, THE NEWS, PAKISTAN, (cannot be linked), (apart from the story published in THE HINDU http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/001200907071040.htm linked here. This PTI news was reproduced by 10-11 other Indian publications including MSN and Deccan Chronicle, Siasat, Asian Age, the next day) and the Urdu weekly Hum Shehri (We the People) http://www.humshehri.com/Sections.aspx?SecID=1471 – a few Bollywood websites including http://www.octanentertainment.com/articledetail/2106/Shahvar-Ali-Khan-Pakistan-No-Saazish-No-Jung.htm along with the recent IANS story http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/009200908020923.htm that was picked up by several publications including The Hindu, Bombay Mid Day, Yahoo India….etc.
As a new artist and a pacifist, I look forward to your unstinted support in this endeavor .
Peace,
Shahvaar Ali Khan
Shahvaar Ali Khan
September 28, 2009
Awesome site! Great initiative…
U guys might be intrigued to check out my track ‘NO SAAZISH, NO JANG’ also available on http://www.shahvaralikhan.com and FaceBook group http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/group.php?gid=75882506880
The Song
In “No Saazish, No Jang” I have endeavored to develop a Peace Anthem with allusions to religious bigotry/extremism & terrorism, neo/western imperialism – impending problems that plague all South Asia – with ‘regionalism’ as a proposed solution to this turmoil. In the song, I have also appropriated and weaved words from speeches of various South Asian and global popular/democratic leaders like Gandhi Ji, Jinnah sb., Benazir Bhutto and Obama to drive home the point that ‘relatively speaking’ all have emphasized the need and hope for Peace. In other words, ‘People desire Peace’ (vis-à-vis the ‘establishment’ that have other ulterior motives). The idea of using these leaders as ‘spokespersons for Peace’ is to also ‘connect’ with the populace of India, Pakistan and NRIs/Ps – the South Asian Diaspora.
The South Asian Audience
Since its exclusive viral internet launch, ‘NSNJ’ has garnered a heartening response from a diverse audience – the website has had 5023 hits till the last hour. The song has also been especially well received by Pakistani, Indian, Bangladeshi and Nepali students from colleges like Harvard, Trinity, NYU and many other institutions abroad, in addition to assorted listeners here in Pakistan and India. It has also been declared the official Peace anthem of a youth organization called the India Pakistan Friendship Club (www.ipfc.info) based in Bangalore with members from both sides of the border, A.C.H.A (Association for Communal Harmony in Asia (http://indiapakistanpeace.org/) and was played all around last weekend of May at the All Pakistan Drama Festival in Ghulam Ishaq Khan Institute at Topi & at SWAT (Pakistanis For Peace) Fundraiser for IDPs held in Aspen Lounge, NYC on June 17th, 2009.
Existing Media Coverage
I am really humbled that the song has made some news in the THE TIMES OF INDIA http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-4772470,prtpage-1.cms, THE NEWS, PAKISTAN, (cannot be linked), (apart from the story published in THE HINDU http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/001200907071040.htm linked here. This PTI news was reproduced by 10-11 other Indian publications including MSN and Deccan Chronicle, Siasat, Asian Age, the next day) and the Urdu weekly Hum Shehri (We the People) http://www.humshehri.com/Sections.aspx?SecID=1471 – a few Bollywood websites including http://www.octanentertainment.com/articledetail/2106/Shahvar-Ali-Khan-Pakistan-No-Saazish-No-Jung.htm along with the recent IANS story http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/009200908020923.htm that was picked up by several publications including The Hindu, Bombay Mid Day, Yahoo India….etc.
As a new artist and a pacifist, I look forward to your unstinted support in this endeavor .
Peace,
Shahvaar Ali Khan
Ibrahim Sajid Malick
October 27, 2009
Excellent blog! In respect of Quiad, Allama and Sir Syed we must re-write our constitution. Our constitution must represent two principles; people belonging to different faiths and sections of society should be equal before the law, the constitution and government policy. Secondly, separation of state and religion. We must modify our constitution to limit the realm of validity of religion in the public arena and society.
http://ibrahimsajidmalick.com/towards-secular-pakistan/148/
Aamir Mughal
November 9, 2009
Excellent blog. Commendable effort to fight against Fascism of everykind. Kudos
engr athar waqar
December 1, 2009
with regards, i appriciate your work.
but i am not clear who all you are.
what should i name all of you.
are you secularist within islam faith? or outside of it?
are you skeptic, athiest ,humanist in athiest or agnostic manner or just moderate with infinite freedom of rebullion?
please first clearify your poision?
i think you should have moral courage to leave faith which you consider dogmatic, superstition and myths? so please leave hypocracy and adopt loudly secular humanism.
thanks
Awais
December 3, 2009
Dear Athar,
I am unable to understand how you came to a conclusion that we consider faith as “dogmatic, superstition and myths”. I would like you to go through the articles on this blog and spot the instances where we have expressed such an opinion.
Isn’t the whole idea of a secular state is that religion should remain a personal matter of all citizens so that they can practice their religious beliefs without any interference. I am unable to understand why such assertions are made that the people who support this idea are atheists, agnostics or anti-theists when I know many deeply religious and spiritual people who support the idea of a secular state
engr athar waqar
December 18, 2009
dear sir,
thanks for clarification.
i think oscar wilde was very right to quote that ideas are dangerous thing.
dear, as you believe that idea of religious state is dangerous thing. as i feel that your idea of secular state is also harmful. you may disagree with me. but first you should clarify your position.
because when you say i am muslim but i am secular also then it means you are mixing two different things in one banner. which is quite irrational and non logical.
if you read quran with pure heart and soul you can feel that 80 % of quranic verses deals with political and social matter. every single muslim with religious backgroung and with common sense cannot claim that. god(allah) is only for the mosques . and outside the mosques in the world matter scientific humanistic law blend with self inner popular feeling are our god.
if god is so limited and helpless then what is the need to pray such helpless god. be bold and be secular.
it is hypocratic behavior to limitize quran for muhammad era only. if islam is enternal then one thing should be claer that political, social and economical orders of quran must be eternal also..
the blogger on your site are skeptic towards the religious belief. then i think it is better for them to continue their struggle with clarifying their position.
i can challenge if i ask your blogger please explain the meaning of faith and religion and then compare them with sincere meaning of quran. then it will be clear that thinking of your bloggers like hood bahi and eqbal sahib is most nearer to agnostic and athiestic and secular humanist world view. if we are skeptic why we are hiding ourself in curtain of hypocratic behaviour.i think muslim in doubt is bad the richad dawkin and sam harris.so be bold and spread KALMA (SEPARATION OF STATE AND RELIGION) OPENLY.
COME OUT FROM CLOSET. YOU ALL ARE AGNOSTIC IN SPIRIT.
REGARDS
SAEED
December 5, 2010
Dear Attar,
i am agree with u.secularism and islam is two different way of life.i dont know why these people are hiding their identity????most of secularist didnt study Quran,so sad…..how can u say that islam is this or that if u didnt know original source???
ASQ
December 23, 2009
I 100% Agree with “engr athar waqar” and i demand the same !! comeon reply! or go back and Read Quran its not just religion its THE SYSTEM OF LIFE! THE CONSTITUTION FOR MUSLIMS ! DEAILING ALL MATTER TILL THE END OF THIS WORLD!
and i suggest (to the owner of this site) go back home start reading how they destroyed your Khilafah and how they are resisting it from coming by just propagating wrong ideas.
watch these if you like information
and also the truth of hadith (if you believe)
thank you
Ahsan
December 24, 2009
u want a secular BAYDEEN (no bliefs) state like many others around the globe, i would like to call such a state D State Of ANARCHY….. at the top u wrote “We are here to advocate the dream of a state where a citizen is recognized because of his/her existence as a human being rather than cast, creed, sect or religion”… in secular states many ppl have individual identity, JUST INDIVIDUAL IDENTITY, leave abt cast creed etc they r not even recognize by their fathers name coz they dont knw who their father is. PATHETIC, u want 2 have such a life???……. ISLAM is the only religion which gives us guidance about social economical n every kind of system…. v r peacefull till v r tempted to fight 4 d right.. no SECULARISM only ISLAM is the solution
Ahsan
December 24, 2009
just consider three example 1) Secular= America, India
2) Jewish ideology= Israel 3) Islamic ideology= Pakistan (though i still think so Islamic ideology is not properly imposed in our country)…….. is it Pakistan who is killing million of ppl in iraq n afghanistan?? is it Pakistan who killed sikh muslims n christians in India??? is it Pakistan who is using drones n killing mostly innocent people in tribal belt??? is it Pakistan who bombed ghaza n palestine???? if the answer is no i think i proved my point…. n let me clear 1 thing PAKISTANI TALIBAN HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM, ISLAM DOESNT ALLOW KILLING OF INNOCENT PEOPLE WHETHER THEY R MUSLIM JEW CHRISTIAN OR HINDU ETC…
Dabe
August 13, 2012
Do you seriously think that the actions that you credit the US and other nations with are a result of their religious beliefs? If so I would say you are very naive. Those actions are simply the gross misuse of power by the leaders of those nations. Are you trying to say that a state simply by fact of being Islamic would do away with the misuse of power? If so, I think you are being so very naive.
ASQ
December 25, 2009
Rightly Said “Ahsan”
Actually those who are killing in Pakistan aren’t even talibans at all. They are Black water, Dencop paied agents(pretending as scholars and misguiding ppl there). If you read history of Ottoman Empire, they did similar stuff when they planted “Laurence of Arabia” (A CIA agent who pretended to be islamic scholar) and used arabs against turks from behind and then made converted Khilafaha to Kingdoms..!! and turkey into secular turkey forcefully (after breaking two elected assemblies who rejected the idea of removing Khilafaha) !! I suggest you all secular ones to go back and study history!!
Awais
December 25, 2009
ASQ,
You are welcome to post your opinion, differ, criticize and quote establish facts but this site is not intended for Zaid Hamidist conspiracy theories and youtube links that contain unsubstantiated conspiracy theories.
I shall delete any such comments which cross the threshold between rational criticism and conspiracy theory non-sense.
By the way, the extent of your ‘study’ is visible from the fact that you have mentioned someone named ‘Laurence of Arabia’, an entity that does not exist in history books. The correct names is ‘Lawrence of Arabia’.
Kindly read books (I know you are a literate) rather than watching youtube links so that you can show some respect to your sixteen years of ‘education’.
ASQ
December 25, 2009
thanks for correcting “u –> w” but does that change the history what happened?
Hidden
December 25, 2009
AoA
I like to ask few things;
1. How can secular system solve problems? and Islam cannot?
2. What is Secular system? What will it benefit if we change Islamic Republic Pakistan to Secular Pakistan?
3. Is there any good example of secular country that can be followed ?
4. What happen to religion if secular system is adopted?
kindly please clarify me
Regards
Ahsan
December 25, 2009
ANSWERS…(with corrections in ur questions)
1) secular system is the one which create problems, doesnt solve them..
2) secular system is the one in which mass genocide takes place on the name of WAR ON TERROR.
3) would love to hear the answer 4m any1…
4) nothing will happen to religion, they cant win a war against Allah (tooba nauzobillah)…
KHURRAM
October 15, 2010
1. In a secular system, every rule or regulation or point of view can be challenged, and if it is not good or no longer relevant, it can be changed. However any view based on your religious interpretations becomes unchallengeable, however absurd it maybe. For example. in our RELIGIOUS society, beating up your wife is not a crime (which is violating the basic rights of a woman), but drinking alcohol is (which only concerns the person involved, so you have no business to interfere)
2. In a true secular system, everybody can follow their own religion, but nobody can impose their interpretation of religion on others. We will only be able to make progress when everybody has complete freedom to do whatever they want, as long as they are not infringing on another’s rights.
3. We can always SET examples. And if you really want and example, open-mindedly see the misery in our country, the hungry people lying on roads, the lack of education, the sectarian clashes, the God inspired terrorism…and compare it with the living standards ,literacy level, and peace of, say, Scandinavian countries.
4. If, hopefully, secular system is adopted, nothing will happen to religion, it’s just that religion will no longer be making things happen (by being imposed on unwilling people’s life) . Religion is a very personal thing, everyone will follow their religion, but nobody will be in a position to harass others who don’t share his creed or faith. Every law will be a rational one, and there will be only very broad limits on people’s freedom.( i.e If you feel like it, you can have full beard, or if you are a woman, a full burka, but you cannot impose this on your dependents if they don’t want it). Everybody has their own life, and they must be allowed to live it as they want.
> Dear I tried my bit to explain to you briefly. We are living in a suffocating society, let’s live and let live.
Awais
December 25, 2009
Hidden,
You can read the following article by a Muslim religious scholar:
I would also invite you to read other articles on this blog. I am sure that most of your questions are answered in detail in these articles.
Hidden
December 26, 2009
AoA
Thanks for link ….good article describing clearly the history evolution of law and systems…
But If seen from other side of picture the problem remains unsolved as when state starts interfering to religion like in turkey and france -> banning women from veil ? and banning mosques having minars in Switzerland? others countries discriminate person having beard ? how can that problem be solved?
and also secular states ban Azzan ? and adult stuff is allowed ? and also what about homosexuals? How and who will deal these stuff? and the porn and adult movies thats a big industry? what will and who will avoid them if secular democrats are owners of such stuff? and how and who can decide laws of some criminal act….how can disagreement be resolved?
As far i have seen in societies–> secular goes–> might is right……
I am still not clear about this system? what to do?
plz clarify me! anyone? I am confused.
CAN PURE SECULAR SYSTEM BE ESTABLISHED ? HOW?
Nadia
October 31, 2010
Good reply!!!
Raja Wahid
February 6, 2010
Let me opine if I may:
1. There is nothing like ‘secular system’. It simply means approaching law-making without deference to or in favor of any religion. Religious law is not permitted. For example, Muslims would allow marriage of a nine year old girl since it is permitted in Shariah but in a secular state such an outrage would not be allowed.
2. See no. 1.
3. Virtually all modern states are secular by and large. Europe is secular and so is United States, Canada – legally and constitutionally not supporting a religion.
4. Business of state has nothing to do with your personal faith. Practice as you please – except lynching people for supposedly disrespecting your holy book.
I hope it explains.
Ahsan
December 25, 2009
ASQ keep up the good work. ppl r afraid…. to all those who r in favour of secularism n says that state should have nothing to do with religion, then i think so u should better go to america n ask them why the president is required to sware by placing his hand on bible?? there should b someother SECULAR DOCUMENT to eliminate religion 4m state… Secularism is the other name of Hypocrisy
Raja Wahid
February 6, 2010
Ahsan,
You do not understand.
Holding Bible in hand while swearing in is not by law but by a custom. That is why a Muslim in US Congress chose to do the same over Quran.
In a typical American court you simply raise your hand and affirm.
Nadia
October 31, 2010
Secularism means constant change in laws as is required with time. Religions resist change and drag societies from development.
ASQ
December 25, 2009
thanks “Ahsan”
@Awais
i am not Zaid Hamidist ! I am a MUSLIM and Inshallah I will be forever. and by the way Mr. Zaid is just a one person dealing one side of the story only. I am not talking about anything what zaid hamid is saying nor i gave you any of his references!
@hidden
good questions ! i guess answering whose question would clarify positions !!
May ALLAH HELP US ALL AND GUIDE US ALL!
and @Awais my objective is not to fight you ! sorry if you are hurt for any of my comments. but my sole objective is that Secularism strips off religion apart and destroys it, till it becomes just set of rituals. that it.
Thank you for hearing !
Ahsan
December 26, 2009
u ppl have quoted Quaid e Azam at the top.. let me give u some more quotations, then its upto u wht u decide n wht Quid e Azam wanted……
1) On October 11, 1947, in an address to Civil, Naval, Military and Air Force Officers of Pakistan Government, Karachi, he said:
“We should have a State in which we could live and breathe as free men and which we could develop according to our own lights and culture and where principles of Islamic social justice could find free play”…
2) On February 21, 1948, in an address to the officers and men of the 5th Heavy Ack Ack and 6th Light Ack Ack Regiments in Malir, Karachi, he said:
“You have to stand guard over the development and maintenance of Islamic democracy, Islamic social justice and the equality of manhood in your own native soil. With faith, discipline and selfless devotion to duty, there is nothing worthwhile that you cannot achieve”
3) “We must work our destiny in our own way and present to the world an economic system based on true Islamic concept of equality of manhood and social justice. We will thereby be fulfilling our mission as Muslims and giving to humanity the message of peace which alone can save it and secure the welfare, happiness and prosperity of mankind”.
Speech at the opening ceremony of State Bank of Pakistan, Karachi July 1, 1948
4) “The constitution of Pakistan has yet to be framed by the Pakistan Constituent Assembly. I do not know what the ultimate shape of this constitution is going to be, but I am sure that it will be of a democratic type, embodying the essential principle of Islam. Today, they are as applicable in actual life as they were 1,300 years ago”.
Broadcast talk to the people of the United States of America on Pakistan recorded February, 1948
i hope this is enough 4 u ppl to understand the true ideology of ISLAMIC PAKISTAN
Raja Wahid
February 6, 2010
Ahsan,
I once spoke with Stanley Walport, the author of Jinnah’s biography. He was of the opinion that Jinnah gave conflicting statements on the subject.
I have seen these comments but I also know Jinnah:
1. Refused suggestion of making Arabic the official language of Pakistan.
2. Refused Raja Sahib Mahmoodabad’s suggestion that Quran be made the law of Pakistan.
3. Never said that Pakistan be a theocratic state.
I personally do not hang my hat on Jinnah’s statements. However, I think history of Pakistan, and her recent past and present has proven that Islam is poison for Pakistan. No matter what Jinnah said, the writing is on the wall.
Tilsim
December 26, 2009
Yes, we have seen the wonderful Islamic social justice system that the Taliban brought forth across the border and the one that they want to implement in Pakistan. I have also seen the ‘just’ society of Saudi Arabia when I lived there. There is no confusion in my mind at least as to what the stakes are.
ASQ
December 26, 2009
Mr. Tilsim is not studying just saying without seeing !!
And Comparing Kingdom of Saudi Arabia = Islamic System?how? its a very little part implemented there my dear Tilsim!
and with Taliban ….no authentic news no written document so you cannot describe by just watching Cnn BBC! can you? (I am no favoring taliban here as they were not soo good …..just fighting with NA and not solving internal problems piece fully that benefited USA)
So if you saying the you got no confusion then you are denying yourself ! denying your education! denying Allah’s System!
and if you had read Hadith you might have known that this was already defined that Muslims would have for durations
1. Khilafaha as True system
2. Long duration Kingdoms
3. Harsh…military rulers/dictators
4. Khilafaha revival same as True system of Islam
now i suggest you to go and study….you will find more !
May ALLAH Help us ALL and GUIDE us ALL! Amen!
Ahsan
December 26, 2009
@ tilsim….. then u would also have seen the glorious JUSTICE system of america in which CIA can lift any muslim n through him to Guantanamo Beh . ppl r kept in custody without any proofs of d charges on them n treated like animals (even worse).
u would have seen afghanistan but wouldnt have studied the history, u wouldnt have studied about the TRUE ISLAMIC state like that of Hazrat Umar’s…..
present ECONOMIC n SOCIAL system is a piece of shit, widening the gap b/w poor n rich. based totally on individualism, where as Islam keeps the balance b/w individualism n collectivism….
presently their is NO TRUE ISLAMIC STATE in the world…
Raja Wahid
February 6, 2010
Ahsan,
This is typical of Muslims. Whenever you point out absurdities of Islam they deny it is Islam. Or as you say, there is no Muslim state at this time.
This is quite a puzzle. There has been no Islamic state since Umar but we still want one because history says there was one where a dog could not go hungry.
Sure. Dogs were well fed but what about Umar complaining about Jaziya shortfall because too many were converting to Islam to avoid it? Or what about his nomination by Abu Bakr without resorting to any ‘Islamic system’? And why did he continue sending armies far and wide to forcibly collect Jaziya?
ENGINEER ATHAR WAQAR AZEEM
December 26, 2009
THE PROBLEM WITH SECULARISM AND SECULARIZATION OF PAKISTAN
DEAR ALL FELLOW CITIZEN SPECIALLY AWAIS SAHIB
I appriciate the tolerance level of mr awais for allowing the opoose opinions (logical or immotional) in this site. it is like mixture of water and fire.
now i want to reply briefly the question of my fellow bloger :hidden.
i think first you should know the meaning of secular thinking as an ideology.
AECULAR IS LATION WORD WHICH MEANS WORLDLY, SO WE CAN SAY IT MEAN TO TAKE INTEREST IN WORLD MATTERS AND BY THE MATERIAL MEANS ONLY.
RELIGION IS ONLY LIMITED TO PRAVITE CIRCLE OF HUMAN BEINGS. SO IN VISION OF SECULAR IDEA , ALL RELIGION (PURE OR NO PURE, OLD OR NEW, TRUE OR LIE, DOMATIC OR RATIONAL ) ARE THEORITICAL EQUAL.
SECUALR STATE MAKE THIS TYPE OF THINKING PRACTICAL POSSIBLE. IF YOU WILL MEET ANY SOFT SPOKEN SECULARIST LIKE AWIAS SAHIB , HOOD BAFI, AND FAREED PARACHA OF DAWN AND IQBAL SAHIB , YOU WILL GOT THE VISION OF PEACEFUL OF COEXISTANCE OF ALL RELIGION UNDER ONE BANNER OF SECULAR SOCIETY.THIS CAN BE CALLED :SOFT SECULARISM.
BUT DEAR IT IS ONLY ON PAPER AND THEORICAL. AND AFTER 9/11 THIS TYPE OF SECULARISM IS DYING DUE TO HARD TYPE OF SECULARISM.
HARD SECULARISM WANTS ELIMINATION OF RELIGIOUS APPROACH FROM ALL SPHERE OF LIFE.FOR THEM ALL RELIGIOUS BOOKS ARE MAN MADE JUNK LITERATURE. ALL PROPHETS ARE NOT MORE THENLITERATYE INTELLUCALS. REVEALATION IS EQUAL TO DOMATIC SENCE. AND DARWIN IS THEIR PROPHET NOW.THIS TYPE OF VISION IS ALMOST EQUAL TO AGNOSTIC ARE POSITIVE ATHIESTIC VIEW OF LIFE.RICHAD DAWKIN, SAM HARRIS AND HICHES LIKE PERSON ARE FOLLOWING SUCH TYPE OF AGENDA.
NOW I COME TO QUESTIONS ONE BY ONE
1. How can secular system solve problems? and Islam cannot?
SECULAR SYSTEM FIRST CREATES THE ENVIROMENT FOR THE SECULAR SOLUTIONS.THEN THE STAGE WILL COME THEN EVERYBODY WILL KNOW THAT WE THE ONE WAY OUT. THAT IS THE SECULAR SOLUTIONS.FOR EXAMPLE WHY IT IS NECESSARY THAT EVERY WOMEN SHOULD JOB. BECAUSE DUE TO ECONOMICAL PROBELMS OF SOCIETY ,LIKE PRICE HIDE AND OTHER CURRUPTION PROBLEM IT IS LOGICAL NECESSARY OF SOCIETY THAT HUSBAND AND WIFE MUST DO JOBS PARALLELY.IF YOU ARE LIVING IN SECULAR AGE THEN ISLAMIC SOLUTION WILL BECOME PRACTICALLY FAILED. IT DOES NOT MEAN ISLAM IS WRONG. IT ONLY MEANS THAT ISLAMIC SOLUTION WANTS COMPLETE CHANGES. NOT URGY PATCHES OF EXTREMISTM TYPE OF ISLAM IN THE ERA OF SECULAR AGE.FOR EXAMPLE IN PAKISTAN, WHY ISLAMIC SOLUTION IS NOT EFFECTATIVE. BECAUSE IT IS APPLIED ON SOCEITY WITH PARTIAL ISLAM BUT MORE SECULAR APPROACH.
2. What is Secular system? What will it benefit if we change Islamic Republic Pakistan to Secular Pakistan?
SECULARISM MEANS LIGHT HOUSE ARE MORE HELPFUL THEN MOSQUES AND CURCHES.IT MEANS ONLY MAN MADE LABOUR IS MORE IMPORTATANT THEN JUST PRAYER.IT ALSO MEANS THIS LIMITED WORLD IS MORE IMPORTANT THE HEREAFTER THAT IS ENTERNAL LIFE.SOMETIMES IT MEANS HEAVEN AND HELL IS JUST IMINGANYSES. IF WE CHANGE OUR STATE LIKE TURKEY IN SECULAR MANNER. WE FACE THE SAME FRUIT LIKE THAT COUNTRY. SOME TIMES I FEEL IT WILL PRODUCE MORE FUNDAMENTAL THEN THE PRESENT STATE OF COUNTRY.I AM SURE IT IS NOT PRACTICALLY POSSIBLE IN PAKISTAN.
3. Is there any good example of secular country that can be followed ?
BECAUSE WE HAVE NO GOOD ISLAMIC COUNTRY. THAT IS WHY YOU ARE ASKING SUCH A QUESTION.IF YOU SAY BEFORE 9/11 THEN I WILL SAY UK AND USA. BUT NOW THEY ARE RUNNING AT THE FOOTSTEPS OF EXTREMIST ATHIESTS AGENDA OF DAWKINS.
4. What happen to religion if secular system is adopted?
IF WE ADOPT SECULAR SYSTEM THEN RELIGION CONCEPT OF HEREAFTER BECOME IRRELEVANT FOR US.I THINK THEN DEATH IS BETTER THEN LIFE FOR MUSLIM. IN WHICH FAITH BASED TRUTH IS BIGGEST HOPE FOR US.
Regards
Hidden
December 26, 2009
@ENGINEER ATHAR WAQAR AZEEM
Thanks for replying my questions! That Means Secularism is just a trap!?
@Awais
Can you justify secularism plz? I really want your point of view too to above question plz!
and also if secular Turkey was good Why turkish are again asking for Islamic Systems?
ASQ
December 26, 2009
AND CAN YOU EXPLAIN THIS???
The below quote is that of David Ben Gurion, the first Israeli Prime Minister, as printed in the Jewish Chronicle, 9 August 1967 .
“The world Zionist movement should not be neglectful of the dangers of Pakistan to it. And Pakistan now should be its first target, for this ideological State is a threat to our existence. And Pakistan, the whole of it, hates the Jews and loves the Arabs. This lover of the Arabs is more dangerous to us than the Arabs themselves. For that matter, it is most essential for the world Zionism that it should now take immediate steps against Pakistan. Whereas the inhabitants of the Indian peninsula are Hindus whose hearts have been full of hatred towards Muslims, therefore, India is the most important base for us to work there from against Pakistan. It is essential that we exploit this base and strike and crush Pakistanis, enemies of Jews and Zionism, by all disguised and secret plans.”
How about explaining this ?and explaining American and Uk supporting it?
Awais
December 27, 2009
This David Ben Gurion quote is fake. A thorough rebuttal refuting all such conspiracy theories is on its way.
Thanks.
Hidden
December 27, 2009
Is there any one who can answer me? or this site can’t defend its own point of view?
Awais
December 27, 2009
Hidden,
Why do you want simple summarized answers to your questions. you are an educated person. Why don’t you read all articles on this site and then ask yourself if your questions are unanswered?
ASQ
December 27, 2009
@ Awais
So i guess from your point of view we should accept israel as friendly nation and also be a part of global community work towards one world government together; the secular government?
and ya you should answer Mr Hidden he is quite impatient for you…..!!!
Awais
December 27, 2009
ASQ
I consider Israel as a discriminatory, oppressive state and I support a recent campaign by Pakistani intellectuals that calls for a boycott of Israel in solidarity with Palestinians.
By the way, if you have tried to ‘read’ the articles on this blog, you would have known that it contains two articles by Edward Said, renowned Palestinian intellectual and campaigner of Palestinian cause. Similarly this site contains Eqbal Ahmad’s work that criticizes Israel. Eqbal Ahmad was himself an opponent of Zionism.
Clearly you do not read, do not want to read and will not read.
Saqib
February 14, 2013
yes dear, we should accept Israel and also Palestine as two states in that part of the world,and also be part of the global human secular community! Question of having anykind of government is different,we should all be living in harmony without any government! Ideally! 🙂
Ahsan
December 27, 2009
after being on this site i have learned atleast one thing, best way to answer a question 4 which u dont have an answer, CALL IT A CONSPIRACY…
ppl in favour of Secularism in Pakistan listen wht they want to listen… they have displayed just one Quote of Jinnah extracted 4m d middle of his speach, n i have shown u 4 of his Quotes, i havent created them, u can search 4 them on net or in books, n u still have questions about Pakistan’s ideology??? that is totally a looser attitude n m sorry to say this… take some more Quotations
—– “we did not demanded Pakistan just for the sake of a piece of land. Instead, we wanted to obtain such a laboratory, where we can adopt the Principles of Islam”.
(MA Jinnah,13th of January 1948,Islamia College Peshawar)
——-“I seek to secure the land for the mosque” :MA Jinnah, 1941
now 4 all those who call Jinnah secular,
“Jinnah was a sword of Islam resting in a secular scbbard(cover) ” Reginald Sorensen, 1946
r these statements (including ones i posted earlier) CONSPIRACY???
FIRSTLY CORRECT UR BELIEFS ABOUT IDEOLOGY OF PAKISTAN..
i am 20, n i can distinguish between right n wrong, y u ppl cant??? Study Islam, i have done a little bit n so far i havent go through any teaching in Islam that undermines the right of minorities.. they r free in Islamic state to practice their religion n beliefs
“there is no compulsion in religion,” (Quran 2: 256)
so ISLAM N ISLAMIC PAKISTAN IS THE ONLY SOLUTION 4 HAVING A PIECEFULL PIECE OF LAND
n mr.Awais or whoever is the owner of this site i truely appreciate ur tolerance n respect u…
ASQ
December 27, 2009
I suggest all ppl here to check out
http://www.wakeupproject.com
and you will know true face of secularism and true face of west! they aren’t even christians or jews who control THESE ARE SECULAR ONES WHO ALWAYS CAUSE PROBLEMS and ALWAYS DESTROY RELIGIONS !
dont believe me watch it for yourself.
and i dont mind if you dont agree, call it an another conspiracy!
Tilsim
December 28, 2009
Asq and Ahsan
May Allah guide you as much as you pray for others be guided.
Islam is a beautiful sublime religion yet we see how it’s teachings are distorted by those who profess the greatest love for it by their arrogance, power hungriness, and brutailty. Please think again, Islam does not mandate any particular form of governance. Question some the self-evident truths that are held by the Hizb e Tahrir and other such political organisations before you accept them. The khilafah system was one system. Muslims have accepted different systems through the ages (including democracy and hereditary transfer of power). The type of system is not so relevant to the greatness of a society. What is relevant is the morality, level of education and attitude to progress of the majority of the population. Muslim societies fail on many of these counts because instead of taking the principles of Islam and applying them to the modern world they want to instead drown themselves in literalism and escape to a dream like past. Instead of worrying about political systems, how about leading a movement that focusses on developing a person’s moral character. Believe me we will see the creation of a better society according to Allah’s principles. The Quaid was a democrat and never had the Khilafah as a blueprint for a modern system of governance for Muslims.
engineer athar waqar azeem
December 28, 2009
salam,
in pakistan fristly secularist want political secularism ,
in west, now western want phylosphical secularism for every one.
i think both way of ideaes are wrong.
we have now one way out…….
islam in complete sence(ideological and political manner)
they is why every non hypocrate honest muslim should reject secularism in every form.
Tilsim
December 28, 2009
@engineer athar waqar azeem
“they is why every non hypocrate honest muslim should reject secularism in every form”. Please do not resort to name calling such as being hypocrits for those Muslims who do not agree with you. It is another manifestation of arrogance.
Ahsan
December 28, 2009
@ tilsim…. thanx 4 d pray, Aameen..
v have to move on with the world, i agree, i m studying chartered accountancy, whn v have to build new accounting standars v have to comply with the Underlying Principles… similarly u cant build a wholly new system without complying to the the Basic Principles of Islam n Sharia… regarding the economic system would like to give just one example, RIBA (soud, interest) is Haram in Islam, v cant base our economic system based upon RIBA, u cant justify this on the basis that whole world economic system is based upon RIBA so v have to move on with the world, Its mentioned in Quran that
“O believers, fear God, and give up the interest that remains outstanding if you are believers. If you do not do so, then be sure of being at war with God and His messenger”…
v should pave our way to “TRADE FREE OF RIBA”, surely this will require time n compromises at d start..
the point i want to prove is, V have to accept the SUPREMACY of ALLAH in a state, which is not the case in secularism, THIS IS THE BASIC PRINCIPLE, can u build a secular system on this principle???
Awais
December 28, 2009
Ahsan
First decide whether interest is Riba or not:
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/editorial/bank-interest-is-not-riba-669
The problem with you and ASQ is that you guys think that your narrow, fundamentalist (Zakir Naik/ Saudi Imported) interpretation of Islam is the only Islam.
Ahsan
December 28, 2009
i knw wht riba is, m calling it INTEREST in broad terms, riba is defined in Quran n Sunnah, at one place it reffers to increase in capital n at the other unequal exchange…. i dont have to visit any website (yours, zakir naik’s or arab’s)…. i have my QURAN n SUNNAH with me. i will weigh things with them….
n i would recommend u to b a bit polite…. or else dont think of me being a FUNDAMENTALIST. i knw how to tackle ppl with ENLIGHTENED MODERATED minds…get it
Awais
December 28, 2009
“i knw how to tackle ppl with ENLIGHTENED MODERATED minds…get it”
May I know how?
By the way, that was really polite of you.
Ahsan
December 28, 2009
dont b afraid, m not a terrorist (i mean CIA agent or Zionist or some other secular minded hypocrite), i dont have guns, m a youngster, m growing up in this society, so i have learned (though i dont use) alot of stuff which is basically secular n depict freedom of speech….
n “Thank u” for the last part of ur reply…
Awais
December 28, 2009
“i dont have to visit any website (yours, zakir naik’s or arab’s)”
Since you have claimed that you have no criteria to create a consensus between different interpretations of Islam and that you will not listen to any opinion differing from your subjective understanding of Islam which you have developed by your personal study, you have proved two important points:
1. You are an intolerant person who does not want to hear differing opinions.
2. Since you have accepted that your interpretations if Quran and Sunnah is personal you cannot present that interpretation as an argument.
3. Since different Muslims may have different interpretations of Islam, it is not possible to declare that there exists any defined political system in Islam (which is actually the case)
I would recommend you to read this excellent thesis on history
Ahsan
December 29, 2009
whtever i read, whtever i hear, whoever is the scholor, I SIMPLY WEIGH IT WITH QURAN N SUNNAH…. m not quoting zaid hamid n zakir naik 4m any of their lectures coz u ppl have preoblem with them…i find diffrent refrences on net, study them n then quote it…. so this is the answer regarding my OWN INTERPRETATION.
so far i havent been harsh on any1, this is the answer 4 question regarding INTOLERANCE..
agree, their can b diffrent interpretations of an issue, but they cant contradict to the PRINCIPLES.. so i would like to c a secular state in which SUPREMACY BELONGS TO ALLAH…
ASQ
December 29, 2009
On one hand you are denying Scholars and on other you are saying read (so called) excellent thesis?
and
1. Since you have no background knowledge of Quran you are still ignorant !and still want to be ignorant to Truth.
2. Interpretation of Quran varies but the rules won’t change! they always remain same!
3. Since you think so that doesn’t mean Islam is incapable of Leading Political System!
if i ask you these !
1. Since secular ones have to remove religion from politics and business then how can they decide what should be done and how? what would be the base of taking actions?
2. Incase of different interpretation of laws /constitution (like going in our country and other as well) how can argument be solved?
different ppl will always have different interpretation! One would be right at one time/one particular situation!
3. since secular ppl have no basis without religion at its back then it means secular system in itself is incapable of declaring any thing right or wrong !
JUSTIFY ME NOW! and if you think some religion will come into play at some place then which one at which place?
OR TELL ME MAJORITY IS AUTHORITY! JUNGLE LAW!
ASQ
December 29, 2009
On one hand you are denying Scholars and on other you are saying read (so called) excellent thesis?
and
1. Since you have no background knowledge of Quran you are still ignorant !and still want to be ignorant to Truth.
2. Interpretation of Quran varies but the rules won’t change! they always remain same!*different ppl will always have different interpretation! Only one would be right at one time/one particular situation in case of Law! but in case of normal stuff there is flexibility in Islam and width is provided for ease to followers! My suggestion don’t –> compare this width of ease with the LAWS OF ISLAM!
3. Since you think so that doesn’t mean Islam is incapable of Leading Political System!
if i ask you these !
1. Since secular ones have to remove religion from politics and business then how can they decide what should be done and how? what would be the base of taking actions?
2. Incase of different interpretation of laws /constitution (like going in our country and other as well) how can argument be solved? who will tell whats right for this particular situation?
3. since secular ppl have no basis without religion at its back then it means secular system in itself is incapable of declaring any thing right or wrong !
JUSTIFY ME NOW! and if you think some religion will come into play at some place then which one at which place?
OR TELL ME MAJORITY IS AUTHORITY! JUNGLE LAW!
Abdul Azeem Khan
December 28, 2009
Awesome Site… really liked the Quote from Jinnah at the top..will try to keep up to date with ur posts.
Ahsan
December 29, 2009
@ mr awais…. i have studied the article u provided link of regarding Interest… 1stly comparing Interest with Rent is senseless… Sharia allows trading in tangible assets or services, but prohibits making money from money as it is considerd RIBA… so a lending transaction is not equal to receiving Explicit interest…
2ndly the concern about Stock market (by the way this is my subject), whn u buy shares u become the owner of the company, u now have a legitimate interest in the company, the company perform it’s HALAL operations n earn profit, this profit is made available to the owner by Capital gain n dividend…. if the company is financed by Interest income also, then their are descriptions in Sharia wht to do…. BUT NOTHING STOPS U TO CARRY OUT A BUSINESS OR A PART OF IT…
i hope this is enough
Tilsim
December 29, 2009
@Ahsan
In a democratic state, if the majority of the citizens are Muslims and they vote for prohibition of Riba, then defacto God’s supremacy has been honoured.
Ahsan
January 9, 2010
m not against democracy!!! so i have no idea y u mentioned this point n mixed SECULARISM with DEMOCRACY…
engr athar waqar azeem
December 29, 2009
so tilsim, by writing this type of statement:
if the majority of the citizens are Muslims and they vote for prohibition of Riba, then defacto God’s supremacy has been honoured.
you want to conditional islam , that is ok after approval of the will of musims.
please tell me how you can justify this from Quran and sunnah?
if you succeed then i will change my point of view. but if you failed. then please claify your position.
who all you are?
agnostic secularist or humanistic secularist???
ASQ
December 29, 2009
@AWAIS @ TILSIM
Its same as rap case ; the punishment can be death(In Islam) or if ppl are secular and broad minded like you want them to be ! then the majority will want not more then 6~12 months prison! Funny na!
and similarly if someone owns a bank he will want that he can print money and buy any thing like federal reserve does!! (Go back and study @ Tilsim and @ Awais how Federal reserve and Bank of england does it !by the way they are non-government organizations ! which control all the money supply in the world and also these puppet parliaments, dont believe me GO and STUDY YOURSELF)
DOES ALLAH NEEDS YOU TO JUSTIFY HIS LAWS?? WHO ARE YOU TO DO THAT?
And you ppl @Tilsim @ Awais have no idea about Interest / Riba and halal system,! they are totally different totally opposite! in simple word –> RIBA has no backing for money which it produced ( no working effort, no physical product, no direct investment of people hard work) and halal like if you ask me Islamic banking(which is still at very immature state) –> has backing and you cann’t give loans without backing of real money! and on other side the normal RIBA banks can give loans more then 70% or 80% of what they actually have ! this is a little example. My suggesion READ “THE MONEY MECHANICS” issued by “Federal Reserve” you will know how much fake system it is, IF YOU have any back ground of economics and finance! , otherwise you wont even understand whats happening!
and by see the current muslims or there puppet rulers you cann’t justify that Islamic System were for old age or are obsolete; that would be a sin! saying so you are directly or indirectly blaming that ALLAH didnt give for the ULTIMATE SYSTEM THROUGH HIS LAST MESSENGER (PBUH). and on other hand you couldn’t even answer one question properly to justify SECULAR PAKISTAN!
REASONS CAN”T CHANGE THE TRUTH!!!KEEP ON REASONING AND BACKING YOUR SECULAR STUFF BLINDLY! YOU DONT EVEN KNOW WHO CONTROLS WHO ! STUDY WORLDS SYSTEM THEN COMEBACK TO ANSWER! dont just read selective dawn articles!
AND THIS COUNTRY IS ISLAMIC PAKISTAN AND INSHALLAH IT WILL REMAIN ISLAMIC FOREVER! and in near future We will see ISLAMIC SYSTEM IMPLEMENTATION SOON.INSHALLAH
MAY ALLAH GUIDE US ALL AND HELP US ALL ! AND REMOVE THE COVER OF KAFIRS SO THAT ALL CAN SEE! AMEN!
Tilsim
December 30, 2009
@ engineer athar waqar azeem
I am a Muslim. I just have a different point of view to yours. Allah never established a tyranny for his religion, he gave Man free choice and asked him to seek truth and distinguish it from error. In the Quran it says very clearly that there is no compulsion in religion. It’s up to Muslims as a body to decide whether some aspect of the modern world, e.g the modern financial system based on interest based lending fits with the principles of their religion or not. It’s not the job of a self chosen few to impose their will on others in a tyrannical fashion. An exploration of whether simple bank interest constitutes the intention behind the banning of Riba is quite appropriate. Various scholars have opinions on this. Muslims should hear all points of view. What are you afraid of?
engr athar waqar azeem
December 31, 2009
thanks Tilsim for having patience. i never claim that you ar not muslim. may be you are better then me.
but i dis agree with you that
”he gave Man free choice and asked him to seek truth and distinguish it from error’
you think seeking truth means inventing truth by secular law and human reason. i think our duty is redicovering truth but after ultimate truth of god by his guidenence.
free choice does not me to serch truth according to our wishes. free choice means we are in test in this world.
Tilsim
January 1, 2010
@ engr athar waqar azeem
Yes, but do we spend enough time reflecting on truth? After all the Al Qaeda/Taliban’s suicide bombers are also told that they are acting truthfully in fulfilling God’s guidance, or by blowing up girl’s schools etc. They read the same Quran and Hadith and decide that their view is the absolute truth and everyone else is committing bida or worse takfir. We have many examples in Islamic history of this including the Khariji muslims of the Prophet’s time who killed Hazrat Ali (ra) because they did not believe that he was following Allah’s guidance. Tell me, is this Islam? Surely reason, balance, evidence and humility are some of the preconditions to establishing the truth. I see the evidence of the immense violence and problems in Muslim societies and don’t blame it on their systems of governance or the lack of their adherence to religious rituals. I think the problem is very very deep and it reflects a lack of personal and collective honesty, intolerance, false pride and arrogance and a huge tendency to blame others for our own failings. How has this come to pass? God knows the ultimate truth, but in my limited I believe that it reflects the deep failing of our system and traditions over many centuries in how we teach and preach religion and moral values. As a consequence some of our collective beliefs, methods and actions need deep reflection and reform. I am not saying that secular societies produces a fail safe or an ideal system. However, I think the evidence is also there if we seek it with balance that we will find secular societies which have many positive qualities and actions already implemented that we are still striving for in predominantly Muslim communities. After all as Muslims we believe that Allah sent his guidance to all peoples over time and as such I am not intolerant of others and I not afraid to learn from them and it does not diminish my faith, mashallah.
engr athar waqar azeem
January 1, 2010
thanks Tilsim, i am trying to understand your pain and passion to reform ugly industry of extremism in muslim world. but when this type of passion converted into pactical law , it becomes unacceptable for common muslim. because when we see the deep impact of dark side of western civilization in our muslim society in name of reform, then we really want to refuse such type of madness. and we must have to.
why we have so mush limited choices? as ugliness of extremism to the ugliness of secular fasism?
reform without honest intention and under pressure of western cultre is always harmfull for us. histroy prove this. we donot want pakistan , another turkey or egypt. but it does not mean we like sudan or saudi model of state.
we are not against reason and logic. but we can not accept merely free reason and thought. because free thought cannot lead us to ultimate truth in this secular age and without god guidence godless goodness is not enough..it must lead us to godless goodness and secular humanism , that is clearly against basic tenets of islam. we have to leave one thing , if we are sincere with our intellucal research.
you can say i donot want to reject god order, i only want reform. but when i compare your innocant wish with practical secular wisdom of west in name of reform and moderation, then i feel really fear with such type of reform. because this type of reform is not on basies on quran and sunnah but it is based on godless reason. i am not blaming you for your wish. i am blaming secular age that poisioned and polluted every beautiful idea of reform and moderation.
regards
Tilsim
January 2, 2010
The idea of reform is very much an idea that is permitted in Islam. However, muslims so far seem incapable of implementing it and various excuses are given for this, including fear of Western domination. The result is stagnation and a society increasingly at odds with itself and the world. This leads to violence. It’s high time that muslims who do not accept the poor state of muslim societies but also reject the concept of a secular state present a clear plan forward that provides hope. l reject theocracy, Khilafat and Al Qaeda type terror or other such concoctions as they fundamentally conflict with Islam as I and many others understand it. I would also like to say that we should not just view secularism as a Western concept. The first constitution of Medina had many secular aspects and there are many well known secular and wise Muslim philosophers such as Al Kindi and Ibn Rushd. Ibn Rusd is particularly of note. So the idea of secularism has been both authored and championed by Muslims. Other Muslims have of course rejected it. So naysayers should either reexamine the arguments for and against secularism as proposed by Muslim philosphers past and present or present a new alternative. We should not continue to accept this mad and satanic direction that religious extremism is taking us. To be honest, I find the idea that the State should force men to support beards or wear pyjamas above their ankles or force people to go to the mosque as ridiculous and incompatible with the thrust of Islamic history itself.
Tilsim
January 2, 2010
Here is a link to some of Ibn Rushd’s ideas.
http://www.alhewar.com/habib_saloum_averroes.htm
Us, Muslims should be able to make up our own minds about this seeming conflict between reason and faith. Are these things necessarily in conflict? These things should be actively debated at all levels of society. Ibn Rushd tried to reconcile the two and for this he deserves much credit.
engr athar waqar azeem
January 7, 2010
salam Tilsim ,
i am not angainst reform, i am against the forced enviroment of secular age that polluted the beautiful idea of moderation in to mere baseless westernization.
Nusrat Pasha
January 16, 2010
Loyalty to Pakistan and loyalty to the Founder of Pakistan would demand that we keep ourselves reminded of the following words of Quaid-e-Azam :
1. ” Religion should NOT be allowed to come into Politics…..Religion is merely a matter between man and God. ” [Jinnah, address to Central Legislative Assembly, 7 February 1935]
2. “…..make no mistake. Pakistan is NOT a theocracy or anything like it. ” [Jinnah, Message to the people of Australia, 19 February 1948]
engr athar waqar azeem
January 17, 2010
mr nusrat,
plz tell me one thing why you forget that speeches and saying of quaid azam in which he clearly describe the idea of pkistan as a wefare demorcrate state at the principles of islam.
why we always happy with one side view and ignore other side which is very strong then your view
Nusrat Pasha
January 17, 2010
When Jinnah uses the term “Islamic” with reference to Pakistan, it is by no means in the sense of a Sharia State, as demanded by ulema. Rather than focusing on the apparent tenor, which more often than not remains subject to dispute and debate, Jinnah remains focused on the spirit of Islamic teachings, which in essence is also the spirit of every single known revealed religion. Thus he succeeded in upholding the secular cause without sacrificing the elements of morality and universal appeal. This spirit, according to him constitutes three elements – Equality, Justice and Fairplay. Any state capable of providing these three to ALL its citizens would be, for all practical purposes “Islamic” in nature. The following two references are worthy of consideration :
1. ” The constitution of Pakistan has yet to be framed by the Pakistan Constituent Assembly…..Islam and its idealism have taught us democracy.It has taught equality of men, justice and fairplay to EVERYBODY…..In any case Pakistan is NOT going to be a theocratic State – to be ruled by priests with a divine mission. We have many non-Muslims – Hindus, Christians and Parsis – but they are ALL Pakistanis. They will enjoy the SAME rights and privileges as any other citizens and will play their rightful part in the affairs of Pakistan.” [ Jinnah,February 1948.Talk on Pakistan broadcast to the people of USA ]
2. ” Why this feeling of nervousness that the future constitution of Pakistan is going to be in conflict with Shariat Laws ?……Islamic principles today are are as much applicable as they were 1300 years ago……Islam and its idealism have taught equality, justice and fairplay to EVERYBODY.” [ Jinnah, 25 January 1948. Address to Bar Association Karachi ]
Jinnah’s Secularism is patently evident from his use of the term “everybody”. Even if he did not use the term “Secular” as overtly and frequently as one would have wished him to, his message is most patently one of “SECULARISM”.
Khullat
February 5, 2010
I fully endorse the views of Nusrat Pasha. Jinnah stood firmly in favour of a Secular Pakistan.The project was subsequently derailed and we have paid dearly for this.Now it is time for the nation to get the country back to path that had been envisioned by its great founder.
engr athar waqar azeem
February 16, 2010
salam and hi to all,
LETS START A CHILLING DEBATE WITH TOPIC
“WHY I BELIEVE ON SECULAR HUMANISM?”
UNDER THIS TOPIC EVERY BODY IS WELCOME TO DESCRIBE HIS PERSONAL EXPERIENCE TO ADOPT THE LIFE SYTLE OF SECULAR HUMANISM.
SO GET STARTED TO OPEN THE CLOSET…..
ConspiracyTehreek
March 13, 2010
Those against secularism should look up the meaning of the word ‘secular’ in a dictionary before deciding to hate/destroy people/fellow muslims supporting it.
Good Initiative!!!
engr athar waqar azeem
May 2, 2010
the dictionary definition of secularism is not working in even highly secularized countries.if you even know the meaning of secularism on papers .it does not means it is implementing really on human societies……we well know what is accualy going on in india, or even america and france… which are secular countries…..
Dabe
August 13, 2012
And what exactly is going on in those countries? Why not be specific, or is vague inuendo all you can muster. Also, if these secular nations are so bad why do they have higher literacy rates, better economies and higher immigration rates than islamic nations or Pakistan. You can crow all you want about how bad these nations are, but you can’t deny that they are the top powers in the modern world.
z
May 20, 2010
thanks for this site. keep up the good work!
Voltaire
August 27, 2010
A clear line between public and private interest should be drawn. Religion falls into the private side of the fence and should not be used as a measure of the state apparatus. It only causes internal discord and highlights deep and powerful vulnerabilties that are exploited by external forces who play power games that ultimately weakens Pakistan. In what I am trying to say is that I bear no malice toward religion but I believe pluralism is the way forward because after all a strong Pakistan is ironically a strong Islam
Nash
September 16, 2010
I have just recently discovered this site and love the fact that there are several fellow Pakistanis that believe in it being a secular state.
While many arguments have been made in futility by the oppenents that The Quaid meant to establish a religious state, but after reading his biography “Jinnah of Pakistan” by Stanley Wolpert ( I think a must read for every Pakistani) I am convinced that Mr. Jinnah wanted a state where everyone including the low caste Hindus could have the freedom to live and practice their faith without the opression of the Hindus. He never meant for Pakistanis as a whole to adopt an ideology of intolerance and fundamentalism. Yes, he has mentioned about role of Islam in the life of Pakistanis…but did not want for the government to influence and impose a faith over its people.
To all my fellow like minded friends here, I would like to ask is…
a) Do you feel that Pakistan can revert back to being a secular nation any time in for the near future?
B) What needs to change and how for Pakistant to start becoming a secular nation?
c) What is currently being done on the ground to achieve this?
Pakistan Zindabad, Quaid e Azam Zindabad.
Shibil
October 13, 2010
Clearly this site is some kind of Hindu Zionist Crusader atheist communist capitalist socialist western imperialist terrorist plot!
But I’m just glad this blog is out there. Thanks for the great research and comment.
kashif Naser
October 21, 2010
Yup and See at Karachi
What a secular triangle of MQM, ANP and PPP gave to Karachi, nothing but violence, massacre and ethnic bias. this triangle has so far killed more then 1000 people in Karachi, three times more then the terrorism in this year.
Pakistan was made for Islam and it is impossible that a state which was made on religious background can be run without religious interference.
The only which joint and unit the people of Pakistan is only the religion of Islam, other wise we are not same people, we have different geography, language, cultural and social structure.
Pakistan cant be secular, even this is the government of secular triangle but they instead of their desire they are unable to do this.
Haider
October 30, 2010
Dear readers beware Raja Wahid is an apostate and has devoted his life to anti Islam activities. He will be punished by Allah most severely for the limited gains for which he did this will soon evaporate and he will experience the severest of punishment from Allah. He is a writer for many anti Islamic websites.
Saqib
February 14, 2013
How do you know that he will be punished by ‘Allah’,if u have a direct link with him{Allah} please send me his address(link)!
Naush
November 11, 2010
Let Allah and not the mullah deal with apostates and matters of religion. Let the people of Pakistan deal with the serious business of governing the state. Let the two remain separate.
mohsin
November 14, 2010
need answer
how to bring a change?
in our selvs
system of education
in media
every where
hope some1 will reply
usman
November 16, 2010
Hizb-e-Tehreer is trying to bring khilafat by distributing pamphlets outside mosques but they will likely fail as Pakistanis don’t trust the religious parties. Most Pakistanis attribute secularism to atheism ,non religiosity, westernization,…a global conspiracy by Jews to destroy Islam.
The attempt to secularize Pakistan are likely to fail because of these myths. Until rational thinking is valued , people would have this wrong equation in their mind.
At the moment , people consider these ideas an attack on Islam.
Humayun Iftikhar
November 22, 2010
It’s so nice to come across this blog that has a noble cause with it. 🙂 Secularism and pluralism is the ultimate fate of Pakistan.
engr athar waqar azeem
December 11, 2010
Dear Humayun,
can we rethink about practical outcome of secularism?
secularism only claim for pluralism ,to her minoraties and poor kashmiries and now al that is going on in the shape of islamphobic way in whole europe and america prove that secularism and seculARITY cannot produce pluralism and plural society.
so Secularism is not merely the division between public and private realms that allows religious diversity to flourish in the latter. It can itself be a carrier of harsh exclusions. And it secretes a new definition of “religion” that conceals some of its most problematic practices from itself.
Citizens for Democracy
January 3, 2011
Hello – please check out Citizens for Democracy, formed against the consistent misuse and abuse of the ‘blasphemy laws’ and of religion in politics. The initial meeting took place on Dec 19th at Karachi Press Club, convened by Professional Organisations Mazdoor Federations & Hari Joint Committee (POJAC). We’ve linked you to our blog and would appreciate your doing the same. Thanks.
Kunal
March 31, 2011
Hi,
I am just wondering and wanted to know and define the meaning of few words like :
1.Religion
2. Secular
3. Communal
4.What is God
5. Where Islam stands with respect to defination of Religion, God, secularism and communalism.
6. Where Hinduism and Christianity stands with regards to defination of religion, God, secularism and communalism.
I wish if can find the right answer to my questions from a person with coomonsense and understanding.
Thanks and Regards.
vortex40147
June 12, 2011
this is said by you:
“We are here to advocate the dream of a state where a citizen is recognized because of his/her existence as a human being rather than cast, creed, sect or religion”
in reply to this i present Illama Iqbal:
QAUM MAZAHAB SE MAZHAB JO NAHI TUM BHI NAHI
JAZB-E-BAHAM JO NAHI MEHFIL ANJUM BHI NAHI (Iqbal)
so u keeping religion aside and talking about this shit…keep on talking abt this it doesn’t matter much…
AzeeBoy
June 18, 2011
If only Pakistan was as secular state as originally envisaged, we wouldn’t have half problems we have now !
WhatsInAName
August 15, 2011
What depressing news, what depressing information.. lighten and brighten up please.. this is not us..
PEACE
September 7, 2011
‘secular pakistan’ is yr dreeam which WILL NEVER COME TRUE INSHALLAH
PEACE
September 7, 2011
‘secular pakistan’ is yr dream which WILL NEVER COME TRUE INSHALLAH
Azad
September 18, 2011
It’s great work. Keep it up guys.
mansoor
November 11, 2011
after banning citizensfordemocracy , this is a site people like me are searching
Irfan Urfi
December 7, 2011
Perception Of Secular Pakistan , Peaceful Pakistan !
We Wish future Pakistan Is Secular Pakistan .Modern world Also demand and Wish Secular Pakistan . Secularism is Naturalism and Natural life Style !
Majid Mehmood.
March 12, 2012
The religion delivered by ALLAH Almighty who create this whole world and anything that u see and that u not see that religion of ALLAH known as ISLAM is best than any man made system like secularism………..you r comparing the system of ALLAH with some man made system……….what i say to u no words no words no words………….just stop this drama of secularism……i think now its all over….jan kr geo.
Dabe
August 13, 2012
Sorry, you lose. I am sure not everuyone in Pakistan follows Islam or may even want to. Your arrogance to push your religious views on others only shows a lack of compassion on your part for the rest of humanity.
Faheem
March 14, 2012
Vix
May 18, 2012
After alot of search finally I found something secular in Pakistan. I like your blog, keep it up.
Rajiv kumar bhardwaj
March 10, 2013
Good job. may god bless us to make pakistan peace loving secular state.
secretseller
April 25, 2015
Just be careful what you wish for .. in the west the baby has been thrown out with the bath water. I can understand why the atheists that swan around these blogs want secularism. Personally I think what is needed in Pakistan is a recognition of the clear line between the cultural restrictions and the broader framework afforded by true Islam. A secular Pakistan will give the gangsters and criminals that run the place even more licence, and no one can hope to attract a ground swell of support if they are perceived as anti-Islam.